Transcript - Sky News Interview AM Agenda

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW 
AM AGENDA WITH TOM CONNELL
THURSDAY, 22 OCTOBER 2020
 
SUBJECT: Need for a Federal ICAC, Gladys Berejiklian, Audit Office Budget, State Borders

TOM CONNELL, HOST: Well, Labor has renewed its calls for a Federal ICAC with teeth after damning revelations in New South Wales put Premier Gladys Berejiklian leadership under pressure. Questions are also being raised about the government's purchase of land at Badgerys Creek for 10 times the value. Liberal MP Jason Falinski has called, though, for the anti-corruption watchdog in its current form to be abolished, claiming it's a kangaroo court that is ruining people's lives. He makes up one half of my Pollie panel now alongside Labor MP Patrick Gorman. Thanks, gentlemen, for both of your time. So does this mean, Jason, you don't think voters deserve to know that Gladys Berejiklian continued this relationship even after sacking Daryl Maguire and these conversations where he's speaking to her about these various, well, schemes and deals he's trying to cook up?

JASON FALINSKI, LIBERAL MP: Well, Tom, I reject completely and absolutely your characterisation of what occurred at ICAC last week. What I'm saying is that every Australian, regardless of what position they hold, are entitled to natural justice and the rule of law. ICAC has behaved in a manner and form that has damaged countless number of people's lives, many of whom, in fact, all of whom have turned out to be innocent. The New South Wales Parliament under then Premier Mike Baird, I think in one of the less honourable moments for an Australian Parliament, passed a retrospective piece of legislation to protect ICAC from its own errors. If this is the type of body and the design of the type of body that people want here in Canberra. I just don't think that's a good idea.

CONNELL: So when you say you reject what happened, these conversations, Daryl Maguire is talking about various ways where he might be able to get deals done. The common refrain from Gladys Berejiklian is well, I don't need to know about that before he launches into detail. You don't think voters should know?

FALINSKI: The interesting thing about our strategy and I know Tom, let me make it very clear to you that I think that the one thing that you've just done then, which the media has done throughout this process, is they're not making the relevant point that the Australian community needs to know. Now, if they're denied information, then they denied the truth. And the truth here is that Daryl Maguire was trying to undertake a deal at Badgerys Creek, which the New South Wales Government rejected. And I've known Gladys Berejiklian for a long time. And the phrase, “I don't need to know about that,” is her way of saying, “I've got enough to think about. I don't actually need to be burdened with more information.” It's not her. And, you know, this is where the media is –

CONNELL: He was also trying to get on a government trip to China –

FALINSKI: Well, Tom, that's not what happened either. The media is going to have to decide –

CONNELL: He wasn't trying to get to China?

FALINSKI: The persecution of the Premier, whether she knew that the calls were being taped and therefore were undertaking, that’s why she would say those things. Or she didn't know. Now, the fact of the matter is the media has indulged itself throughout this process, and refuses to actually accept one point, which all of these conversations had absolutely no probative value to anything that ICAC is undertaking by ICAC own admission. Once again, a point that rarely makes it into any of the stories that the media has had on this topic.

CONNELL: So the second thing I was trying to put to you was the other conversations he had to her about him possibly trying to get to China.

FALINSKI: But Tom, did he go to China?

CONNELL: I'm not saying that, but he was trying to get there.

FALINSKI: So he didn't go to China, he didn't do the land deal, she was called in a public hearing –

CONNELL: But this is the defence, because he wasn't successful, nothing happened.

FALINSKI: No, that's not what I'm saying. It's absolutely not what I'm saying. The issues that were raised in the public hearing of the Independent Commission Against Corruption in New South Wales could have easily been handled, and indeed were handled, in a private interview with the Premier. What was the purpose of that public hearing?

CONNELL: Alright well I’m conscious we’ve got another panellist on, Patrick Gorman.

FALIINSKI: The point of an anti-corruption body is to root out corruption, what was the purpose of that hearing?

CONNELL: Well, perhaps to go and talk about some of the contradictions as well, Gladys Berejiklian was asked.

FALINSKI: You can do that in a private interview, which they did. So what was the purpose of the public hearing?

CONNELL: Well, even in this public hearing when she was asked various things, for example, about I think it was called the UWE, she said she's never heard of it and they played it to her afterwards where it's mentioned to her by Daryl Maguire. Anyway, I do want to get to Patrick Gorman. Patrick, do you share any of the concerns about the public nature of ICAC? I know Margaret Cunneen, for example. You know, you can see reputation there essentially was unfairly tarnished. Do we need to be careful about how a federal one would work?

PATRICK GORMAN, LABOR MEMBER FOR PERTH: Well, I don't believe that you should use the argument of being careful for inaction, and I think that's what we're seeing from the Government at the moment. It is saying, well, these things are complex, we need to go very slowly. I don't think that they actually want to do this. If they did, they would have released the draft legislation that we heard in Senate estimates they already have for consultation. They should put that legislation out. And when it comes to what the community expects, I don't think there's that many people who are concerned about the idea that an independent corruption fighting body would call a premier to give evidence. Indeed, that is exactly what should happen when there are concerns. Politicians, and indeed, very senior politicians, are accountable to the public and, they are open to scrutiny. I don't believe that we should be putting pressure on independent bodies like this as an excuse and a distraction from the real fact, which is we don't have a national body to do this work.

CONNELL: But when you say not be careful, shouldn't we be careful when you want to set something up that, yes, is able to focus on corruption, but not unnecessarily tarnish people's reputations? What's wrong with the word careful there?

GORMAN: Well, look, if Christian Porter is not capable of doing that, then maybe he shouldn't be in his job. It is entirely possible to have to –

CONNELL: So being careful is okay then?

GORMAN: Being careful is okay, but being so careful that you do nothing is unacceptable. We elect politicians and the Minister's job is to act and to lead. He needs to put the legislation out there and then we can have an actual informed discussion rather than just sort of worries about what might or might not be in the secret legislation that Christian Porter has had for some 10 months now and refuse to release. And we also have other models. I know that the New South Wales ICAC is a headline grabbing body, but the Corruption Crime Commission in Western Australia is another good model that has rooted out corruption in Western Australia. It is, has extensive powers, and it is a successful model. So we don't just need to look at New South Wales as they are, as the model for everything we should do federally. It's a federation, whole bunch of other places we can get ideas from.

CONNELL: Let me ask you this, Jason. You're obviously sceptical about the role necessarily of an ICAC such as New South Wales. What about for integrity and monitoring, spending and so on? The Australian National Audit Office, the budget, as a result of not giving the $6.5 million the Audit Office wanted, now the Audit Office will be doing fewer performance audits, with a record amount of spending rolling out right now by the government. How can you defend that?

FALINSKI: So, Tom, I'm still concerned about the attitude regarding the New South Wales ICAC. I mean, Lord Denning said, I believe it was a Lord Denning who said it is better to let 10 guilty men go free than to condemn one innocent man to persecution. We seem to have the opposite in the New South Wales Independent Commission Against Corruption. And I guess the other point that I would make to people who are not from New South Wales is that the anti-corruption body in New South Wales is yet to secure one conviction for corruption, one conviction for corruption. So once again, I ask the question, how successful has this body actually been in rooting out corruption? To your question about the audit office, Yeah, look, I'm not across what the budgetary requirements are for the audit office –

CONNELL: But I'm telling you what they are, there are fewer performance audits, year on year, as a result of the last budget.

FALINSKI: Thank you, Tom. But what I would say is that quite clearly what we have found over and over again is that it is possible often to hide an act of corruption, but it is very, very hard to hide the flow of money and what is going on or what was uncovered at Badgerys Creek, the hard forensic work that was undertaken to discover that. The fact that that is now being bundled up in a brief of evidence for the AFP to investigate who will then take that brief to the Director of Public Prosecutions, is one way, some would argue a better way, but one way, I think that you are going to root out corruption more systemically.

CONNELL: I just don't understand how that’s a response that the audit office will now be able to do fewer performance audits?

FALINKSI: Well, the answer to your question is, I don't know what the situation is at the audit offices or their budgetary requirements.

CONNELL: Well the budget says in black and white, 42 then 40, then 38, performance audits each year over forward estimates they are doing fewer audits because they have budgetary shortcomings. How can the Government defend that at a time when the audit office presumably is so important?

FALINSKI: Tom, I wasn't involved in that decision. I don't know. But we do live in a time where we're going to obviously have far more constrained financial resources at a government level as we come out of this pandemic. I can't answer your question sorry.

GORMAN: Surely in a resource constrained environment, you actually want to make sure that you're spending government money appropriately, if you're not giving the Australian National Audit Office the resources it needs? How do you know in that resource constrained environment you're not spending money effectively?

CONNELL: I want to get to one final issue just with you, Patrick Gorman, WA border approach. We haven't spoken for a while. Since then, Mark McGowan has said other states just want the borders open because they want WA money. We've had the Chief Health Officer in WA say there are options for WA to open up more. What do you think families in WA will be thinking about some of the premier's comments when they haven't seen grandkid's grandparents, other loved ones for so long?

GORMAN: Yeah, we've got to approach these compassionately. I think sometimes in the heat of some of these debates, and they've been very heated between the Federal Government and the various state governments, there has been a bit of a compassion deficit. We need to make sure that we are approaching these things and recognising that these decisions -

CONNELL: So WA has a compassion deficit?

GORMAN: In some of these heated debates, and I've reflected on some of my own language in recent months, sometimes you don't remember there are real people on either side of this country who want to connect, wants to get back together. I don't think any Australian actually wants borders, we just need them as a health response. And I think that's a really important principle. Of course, as soon as it is safe to remove these borders, I think people will want to see that happen.

CONNELL: But the CHO is saying there can be an approach that’s still safe that opens up the borders more, and seemingly –

GORMAN: I'm encouraged that the Chief Health Officer in Western Australia had said one week ago that we were reviewing it in two weeks, that is about seven days time from now.. These matters that will be subject to new advice. And I'm hopeful that that allows for more family reunion, more Australians to come home to Western Australia if they are overseas. We are obviously, thanks to the hard work, in particular Victorians and I do want to say as a West Australian, thank you to all Victorians who have gone through an incredibly painful lockdown, that has allowed some of these things to be reviewed. And while the health advice …

CONNELL: OK, so I've got to leave it there we are way over time.

GORMAN: Hard out

CONNELL: Patrick, Jason, thank you.

ENDS