Transcript - TV Interview ABC Capital Hill with Jane Norman

SUBJECTS: Liberals’ Travel Bubble failures; Western Australia Hard Border; Western Sydney Airport land rort; Australian National Audit Office Funding; National Integrity Commission; Christian Porter’s unfinished homework.
 
JANE NORMAN, HOST: Liberal MP Jason Falinski and West Australian Labor MP Patrick Gorman. Welcome to both of you.
 
PATRICK GORMAN, FEDERAL MEMBER FOR PERTH: Thank you for having us on the program.
 
NORMAN: Patrick, let's start with you because some of these travellers ended up in Western Australia. Twenty three in fact. Obviously WA hasn't signed up to the Trans-Tasman travel bubble. But do we know yet whether these Kiwis actually had the right exemptions to enter the big state?
 
GORMAN: I'm not aware of the circumstances of all twenty three of them, but from what we've seen so far, no they did not. They did not have permission to enter Western Australia. Indeed in their travel to Australia the condition was that they would stay in New South Wales or the Northern Territory. So they haven't even complied with what the Federal Government required of them. This is concerning because it's again the Federal Government only taking responsibility for half of the situation. Of course when it comes to foreign travellers into Australia that's the Federal Government's responsibility and they can't just play it fast and loose with these things. These are serious matters. There are lots of people who are trying to get home or get back to Western Australia for far more compassionate reasons than a holiday. It is concerning that this has happened and just as I heard before, the states have had access to these manifest, the Federal Government had access to these manifests as well. The Federal Government knew who was on those planes, knew where they were travelling to, and indeed knew which countries they'd come from. So the Prime Minister and his team need to sort it out.
 
NORMAN: What exactly is the concern here Patrick Gorman? I understand that WA I wasn't part of the travel bubble deal. However what risk do these New Zealanders actually pose to West Australians, considering that New Zealand has succeeded in eliminating the virus even more so than Australia or even Western Australia?
 
GORMAN: Well indeed, you mentioned the success of the New Zealand Government in eliminating the virus, but unfortunately we can't say the same for New South Wales, which is where I understand these travellers were before they then travelled onto Western Australia -
 
NORMAN: Weren't they transiting through the domestic airport though?
 
GORMAN: Yeah, well I'm not aware of the situation for transit between the domestic and international terminals in New South Wales, but that there is differences when it comes to how things are managed at domestic and international airports. And it's concerning because ultimately we're a country of laws and we're a country of process. These people did not follow that process. That is unfortunate and most Australians who have gone through months of not being able to see loved ones or not being able to do things, indeed very strict lockdowns in Victoria. Australians who have done the right thing would look at this and go, "well hang on a minute how come this new program all of a sudden falls apart within a couple of weeks?" And when it comes to National Cabinet, I mean we know the National Cabinet didn't meet last week. So indeed if there were opportunities to discuss these things further that opportunity did not exist last Friday.
 
NORMAN: Although I think the states were well aware of the fact that these travel bubble arrangement was happening according to the information we have from the various National Cabinets that preceded it. But Jason Falinski, what has gone wrong here? Like should airlines be allowing people onto a plane if they don't have the necessary travel exemptions to freely travel to that state?
 
JASON FALINSKI, LIBERAL MP: Yeah Jane, it's just disappointing in the 21st century that Australia is divided like this. You know, the states have decided that, certain states have decided to erect borders, it's their job to administer those borders. And I think that's pretty much where the situation sits. 
 
NORMAN: But if you don't have the regular, what is the G2G, the Good to Go exemption to get into Western Australia why should you be able to get on a plane in Sydney and actually travel to WA? Should there be some responsibility from the airlines here? Like I know that if you're overseas you've got to show you've got a visa. Should it be the same for these travel exemptions?
 
FALINSKI: No I don't think so, Jane. I think I think we're in the 21st century, Australia was built to be whole and the fact that some of those state governments have decided to erect borders, not on health advice but on the fact that it's very popular with their electorates, as we're seeing in Queensland at the moment, then that's what you get. And if they want to administer their borders then they should do that.
 
NORMAN: Well we know that with any kind of migration having confidence in the system is key for public sentiment, so just finally with you, Jason Falinski  on this one, do you think that voters are going to be worried here? Like if you're in Western Australia, there has been a hard border closure for months now. Won't they be concerned about a possible breach here?
 
FALINSKI: Well Jane, if your argument to me is that voters of Western Australia and Queensland should be worried about how their state governments are administering their borders then you're not going to get a disagreement from me.
 
NORMAN: All right, well that wasn't the argument I was putting to you. But I did want to ask Patrick Gorman about the West Australian hard border because, of course, you are a former State Secretary of the Labor Party. What are the politics here, Patrick Gorman? I mean this is obviously playing very, very well in Western Australia. Five months before his State election surely there is some politics at play here?
 
GORMAN: Well, I believe that we have to treat these things as health matters. Indeed if we start to treat them as political matters we end up with very unfortunate fights and people talking about things from a moral or economic point of view. These are measures justified on health grounds - 
 
NORMAN: But hasn't the state's Chief Health Officer actually said the health grounds don't really stack up anymore that you actually can start to reopen WA's borders safely with jurisdictions that have zero or low COVID levels.
 
GORMAN: Well of course, no one wants these borders in place. These borders are in place as a health measure to protect people. 
 
NORMAN: But are they health measures still?

GORMAN: The Chief Health Officer of Western Australia has said that in two weeks’ time it is appropriate to review them but not until that time. Now again I don't want to go into the politics of this. I think it is important that we treat these things seriously, and of course, yes I know that there are people who do find these strict regimes very difficult in terms of family reunion and things, we've got to be very compassionate about that. But whatever the case, we have to listen to the health advice. That's what's done our country so well through this pandemic so far. And just because people might get frustrated, and I get that frustration, we can't all of a sudden choose not to listen to the health advice.
 
NORMAN: Okay well let's move on, and one of the issues that we mentioned earlier that have dominated budget estimates this morning, is that $30 million Leppington land purchase around the Western Sydney Airport. Jason Falinski, you're a New South Wales MP, this just stinks doesn't it?
 
FALINSKI: It does Jane, it really does. And I think the work that the Auditor General has done on this has been excellent and I think this is the way that investigations into maladministration or at least malpractice at government level should be conducted. They've handed over the information that they think may be a breach of criminal law to the AFP. They will conduct their investigation and I'm sure I'm one of virtually every single person in this building who wants to know the outcome of those investigations.
 
NORMAN: Patrick Gorman, do you think heads should roll over this? I mean of course there is a criminal investigation underway but there are also a few internal investigations within the infrastructure agency itself.
 
GORMAN: Look, it is very concerning and we've got, I think, now four separate investigations underway. There will need to be, if there has been any wrongdoing which indeed it sounds like there are concerns about the possible wrongdoing having occurred in the department or in terms of people handling this matter. Of course people should face the consequences if they have done something wrong. It is hard to believe that, you know this is in 2018, and it sort of rolled on for a few years and only now is the Department thinking that something needs to be looked at. And of course for Australians more generally, when you've got the Infrastructure Department getting billions and billions of additional dollars as we saw in the budget the other week, people need to have assurance that their taxpayer dollars are being spent properly and on these projects at the lowest possible cost. So I want to see a quick investigation and I want to see transparency as appropriate throughout those investigations.
 
NORMAN: And I guess I'm just finishing that one, Patrick Gorman. How concerned are you that had the ANAO, the National Audit Office, not investigated this that perhaps we might actually never know about what could be, you know, a massively overinflated price for a piece of land?
 
GORMAN: Well of course that's concerning and I'm concerned about the resourcing for the Australian National Audit Office. They can only investigate so many matters and they do their work incredibly thoroughly. If they don't have the resources to do that work then indeed things may go un-investigated and therefore we wouldn't necessarily find out about these sorts of occurrences. And I think if I look at the nature of this government, it's a government that runs away from transparency, we see some obfuscation when it comes to Senate Estimates, and of course the go-slow on a national ICAC or Corruption and Crime Commission is a real concern because how can we say, "the Federal Government is perfect, it's just the state governments that are sometimes naughty"? That argument doesn't fly with me. I think you need to raise the standards everywhere. And surely the lesson out of this is that we need to actually increase the funding to the ANAO and increase oversight of how we run things here in Canberra.
 
NORMAN: Jason Falinski, just last word to you on this one. Are we seeing the National Audit Office basically do the work of a federal ICAC and then doesn't that add weight to the argument that we need a federal anti-corruption body now?
 
FALINSKI: Well look, Jane. That's a really interesting question which has a lot of parts to it, but I think the important part about what the National Audit Office has done is that if there are people in the public service who think that they can get away with side deals like this - if that's what occurred I mean we have to be very careful, this is still under investigation - people now realise that these things could be looked at by the National Audit Office, and that I think is a far more effective way of rooting out corruption than other systems or other models that we have in other parts of Australia.
 
NORMAN: What about this proposed federal ICAC though that the Federal Government's working on?
 
FALINSKI: Well look, I think Christian Porter is working on that at the moment, he's going through that model -
 
GORMAN: He's been working on it for two years! Does this guy ever finish anything? Does he ever finish any of his homework? Industrial relations, ICAC. Nothing ever gets finished with this guy!
 
NORMAN: We're running out of time. Jason Falinski, yeah, when is this going to be happening?
 
FALINSKI: Well as I understand it from Christian's media release today, he's going through the process now, we've allocated $106 million in the latest budget for the Integrity Commission and we should see something come before the Parliament, if not later this year, early next year.
 
NORMAN: All right we very much look forward to that. Jason Falinski, Patrick Gorman, thank you for your time today. 
 

GORMAN: Thank you.
 
FALINSKI: Thanks Jane. Thanks Patrick