Radio Interview - RTR FM Breakfast With Pam

Subjects: The Federal Government's Inquiry into COVID-19, Mike Pezzullo's referral to the Australian Public Service Commissioner.
 
TOM CONNELL, HOST: All right, let's get to the political panel as we discuss the COVID inquiry. In particular, plenty of criticism for it, for not being broad enough. Joining me live, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman, NSW Liberal Party President Jason Falinski. Gentlemen, thanks both for your time. Pat, we've got this big inquiry that's supposed to tell us everything that we want to avoid doing next time, or we should do the same way, whatever it might be. And it can't even include state borders being locked down or the states sanctioned lockdowns of schools and people. Why not?

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE:  Well, Tom, as you said, this is a big inquiry and it delivers on a commitment we made to have a serious inquiry to make sure that we learn the lessons for the next pandemic. And that's what this is all about. There have been some who've responded to this announcement wanting to continue the fights that I think Australians are quite sick of, which was division between the Commonwealth and the States. What we want is a forward-looking inquiry that gives us the good policy recommendation nations into the future. Many of the states and territories already done their own inquiries. Here in WA, we've already had a state government inquiry which has examined a range of measures. I'm sure state governments will contribute, as will the territory governments, into this inquiry. But it really is about setting us up for the future.

CONNELL: But if it's going to set us up for the future, how can it not look at the most controversial and most inhibiting measures that were taken, including many aspects of the longest lockdown in the world in Melbourne? Many aspects of that just can't be looked at. Doesn't that seem bit crazy?

GORMAN:  Well, restrictions on people movement were used around the world. That's not unique to Australia. What this inquiry will do is look at where we need to position our health services and other Commonwealth services, including some of those vital income support services that were relied on during the COVID pandemic, to make sure that we're set up for the future -

CONNELL: So, hang on, because they were used around the rest of the world, we don't need to look at how we used them? Is that the logic?

GORMAN: What I was saying, Tom, is that the things that Australia did were, in many areas,
including in restriction of people movements, consistent with actions taken around the world. What we want is to make sure with this inquiry is to make sure that the Commonwealth -

CONNELL: Some of those countries have said, you know, 'we won't close schools again in that circumstance.' They've actually looked at that. We're not going to look at that if it was state-sanctioned.

GORMAN: Tom, I'm not writing a submission to the inquiry on Sky News today. If you wish to put forward a submission, you, Jason, any member of the public is welcome to do so. It'll report on the 30 September 2024. We want to get people's input. People are welcome, be they states, territories or individuals to put in their submissions. We'll look at the existing inquiries. It's actually about opening up the discussion we're happy to have people put in their submissions, including yourself.

CONNELL: Except if I make a submission on something that's state sanctioned. Then it's unable to be probed. That's the inquiry. Jason, what's your view on this inquiry?

JASON FALINSKI, NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT: Tom, it's not an inquiry. It's a rug that Anthony Albanese can sweep the dirt of Daniel Andrews, Annastacia Palaszczuk, Mark McGowan under. There is so much that if you started prodding around, that you would find about just what the Andrews Government did alone that would be of such concern that I think there would be serious issues to be raised, potentially criminal ones. And it goes to even things like the use by the Victorian Government of online social armies to spread their message and to make sure that Daniel Andrews didn't get blamed for one of the most incompetent responses to COVID anywhere in the world. And, you know, Tom, Albo has in his own ranks someone who has questions to answer for, in the form of the Member for Higgins, who told Australians that she was a health expert and that the AstraZeneca drug that was going to protect so many Australians from COVID was unsafe and was causing deaths. We now know that when people were saying that they were exaggerating those statistics, they were putting Australians' lives at risk, including the now Governor for Queensland, who was doing that as the Chief Medical Officer of Queensland. These are all things that will get swept under that rug that has been called an inquiry. And I think it's just so disappointing, not only for Australians who lived through it, but for future Australians if they have to deal with something similar.

CONNELL: We've had umpteen inquiries, state ones as well. Are you able to say, 'okay, here's a couple of things we shouldn't do again?' I mean, we've had a lot of analysis, and experts have weighed in. So, is it also actually realistic to say, 'well, here's some things we shouldn't do again?' Are there any you'd offer up from the Morrison Government?

FALINSKI: Well, yes, absolutely I would. I think that the Federal Government should never again pay the bills for the incompetence of the states, and that's what happened during COVID So constantly states would make mistakes. Now, Patrick will not unfairly say that some of those mistakes were being done under some of the most extreme circumstances that I hope I will ever see in my lifetime. And that's fair enough. But they've never been admitted to. And when they're not admitted to and when they're not examined, they're more likely to happen again. Once again -

CONNELL: It's not really a mea culpa, saying we shouldn't have paid for others' stuff ups, though, Jason. Anything in terms of actual action the Morrison Government undertook that you think well, in hindsight...?

FALINSKI: Yeah, Tom, I do, absolutely. I think that in Christmas 21/22 period, that period there, the Federal Government should have been ready with rapid antigen tests, and we weren't. We should we should have made it very clear to the public that the phase down of labs that were doing the PCR tests were going to lead to massive dislocation for many Australians who by that stage could only travel to Queensland if they'd had a PCR test, not a rapid antigen test. And I think, generally speaking, while I understand the response of governments right around the world in March 2020, when we just didn't know what we didn't know, what has come out since then is that we went massively overboard.

CONNELL: Let me just ask you this, Patrick, as a final one: do you think that border closures and the way they happened was something that should just happen in the same way next time? Totally up to that state, with no consultation or agreement from the rest of the country. Is that the purview of states? And should it remain the case?

GORMAN: Well, states, the Commonwealth have different powers, and we saw those different powers used during the pandemic. What I would say is that what we do know, and I think it is a very reasonable proposition, that no two pandemics are the same. What we need to ensure is that we learn the lessons that can be applied to other global health challenges that affect Australia. We want this to be done. It's been led by a senior former health officer in Robyn Kruk. This is a serious inquiry to make sure we learn the lessons for what we can do next time. I think to sort of to set it up to be yet another round of 'states versus Commonwealth' would be a very disappointing outcome because actually, this is about the health of Australians.

CONNELL: Well, yeah, but balancing health against liberties and that can't happen because we can't look into border closures. State ones. Anyway, I think I've perhaps made my thoughts clear on that one. Let's get - 

FALINSKI: Tom. Can I go further? Tom? There's just one thing, which is that if there isn't an examiner nation to the campaign run against the AstraZeneca vaccine, which delayed the reopening of the country and put people's lives at risk, and the campaign run by the Premier of Queensland and the Chief Medical Officer, who is now the Governor in Queensland, then I don't know what the point of an inquiry is.

CONNELL: All right, Patrick, just want to ask you about this story around Mike Pezzullo that's in the Nine papers today. There's nothing illegal that's happened and it's obviously private message going from WhatsApp to Signal, does action need to be taken or does even a public servant have a right to private messages?

GORMAN: Well, these are important considerations. Not ones for politicians to just give their own personal views. That's why Minister Clare O'Neil has appropriately referred this matter to the Australian Public Service Commissioner, Dr Gordon De Brouwer, to investigate the reports today, the circumstances around them, and to report back to her. I'll leave it at that 

CONNELL: That you don't have any sort of concerns at first glance, I suppose, on reading this?

GORMAN: Obviously, there's a reason that the Minister has referred these matters for appropriate investigation by the Public Service Commissioner that will take place. That has commenced. But I won't add any more at this point.

CONNELL: Okay. Jason, what about your thoughts? Was this going beyond a public
servant's purview?

FALINSKI: Well, like Patrick, I don't want to get too involved. I mean, there's an inquiry,
and we shouldn't presume the outcome of that inquiry, but, Tom, you and Patrick are completely correct. I mean, public servants should not use their role or public resources to promote their own personal political opinions. And I think a lot of Australians are very concerned at the moment how local councils are using ratepayers funds to promote the campaign, to get involved in the referendum on both sides of that referendum, when it is not the role nor the place of councils to be doing so. And once again, I point to Clover Moore, who day by day looks more and more and more like Australia's answer to Hugo Chavez and the misuse of public funds on behalf of her residents. And it's not right. And I think that these were things that previously Australians took for granted that public resources weren't used for political purposes. But more and more that seems to be breaking down and that's a matter of grave concern.

CONNELL: Jason, Patrick. Thank you.