Radio Interview - Noongar Radio Breakfast with Mark Patrick

Subjects: Early voting for the referendum starts today, answering listener questions on the Voice, Clive Palmer supports the No Campaign, dealing with the No Campaign's misinformation, how to have conversations about the Referendum.
 
MARK PATRICK, HOST: Got someone here in the studio with me to have a little talk. Morning Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: And Federal Member for Perth, so it's great to be here.

PATRICK: And Assistant Minister for - is it - social services? 

GORMAN: Public service.

PATRICK: Public service, right. So, all those titles.

GORMAN: So I've got some responsibilities for all the public servants in the federal system, including those who work at Centrelink, Medicare, all those essential services we rely on each day. 

PATRICK: Right, okay, so we're here to talk about the Voice, right? 

GORMAN: We are, it's the big conversation across the nation right now. And it's really important here in Western Australia that everyone makes a really informed decision. And today is a particularly important day for the referendum. Because early voting opens today.

PATRICK: Correct, here in WA, but in other states, not so much, they have a public holiday today, I think?

GORMAN: They are, they're having a public holiday. So we get first bite of the cherry, which is good news. So I'll be heading off to Infant Jesus Parish in Morley from 8:30 to hand out How to Votes, talk to people, because even when people come in to vote in the referendum, they might want a little bit more information. So I think it's important to be there - 

PATRICK: Definitely. 

GORMAN: - sharing what this is all about. What the Voice is all about.

PATRICK: Right? So, I've heard - and I don't know, I thought it was pretty concerning, actually - there's some restrictions on being able to wear particular clothing when you're going to vote. Is that right?

GORMAN: It's very common for state and federal elections and referendums that you can't wear campaign material while within the booth. So for me, I'm wearing my Yes t-shirt, now. I'd just do up my jacket pretty tight, or put a jumper over the top.

PATRICK: So covering it up is okay? 

GORMAN: Yeah, sometimes people will turn them inside out - those sort of things. But really what that's about is trying to make sure that when voters are in the booth making their decision, they're not bothered. That, you know that's their time to make their decision. But those of us on the Yes campaign will be out there at every booth for prepoll, including just down the road on Barrack Street as well for your listeners, worth knowing just the Maccas in the city, you can go and vote as well, which is great news. Don't know if I'm allowed to say a brand name, next to a "burger shop."

PATRICK: Doesn't matter, everybody knows where the Golden Arches are.

GORMAN: So there's early voting there as well. And then obviously, on Referendum Day on the 14th of October, there'll be lots of people out there. Lots of color, lots of excitement, lots of t-shirts, posters, and all the rest. But yeah, when people go in to vote, I think by that time, hopefully everyone's got more than enough information. And I hope when they go into vote, they vote Yes.

PATRICK: Many of us do. Many of us are concerned about some of the things that have been said by the No Campaign, however, lots of the things that have been said by the No Campaign have no foundation in fact. I find it difficult to argue against things that have no foundation in fact. Because when you start, you have to come from a premise that's just got no foundation in fact, and they don't accept that. How do you argue against somebody that's got an idea that is completely wrong?

GORMAN: Well, what I say to our volunteers, and we've been out doorknocking in Perth week on week for more than three months now. We've knocked on more than 17,000 doors, that's just in the Perth electorate alone. I think we're getting up to about 60,000 plus across all of Western Australia, and there's a lot more to come. There's a big event on Sunday. What I say to our volunteers is: you're not expected to be an expert on every single detail of every policy for the last 123 years. Just talk to people about why is it important for you that we recognise our first peoples in the Constitution. Talk from your personal experience, because ultimately, then you're dealing in genuine fact, which is what you've seen in our community here in WA, and how you see that the Voice will make a difference.

PATRICK: That's really good, except when you're up against somebody that's got the wrong idea. And they're set in their wrong idea, there's got to be a way to educate them towards the fact that they have a wrong idea. And this is what I was concerned about with the with the way that the argument has been portrayed in the media. The media seems to give the No Campaign's incorrect information as much time as they give the Yes Campaign's correct information.

GORMAN: Well, what I'll often say to people when they might say something to me that they've seen on social media, or that a friend told them, that I'm like, 'well, I know that's wrong,' but me just saying 'that's wrong,' that's not particularly useful. That's not a good dialogue. You know, sometimes you just question it to say, 'Oh, does that sound right to you? Does that really sound true?' And when sometimes people come to that realisation themselves, that actually, maybe some of those people are out there who are campaigning have been telling them mistruth. That actually makes them become even more bothered. And I know that we've now got sort of one of the "mistruthers-in-chief" diving into the campaign in  Clive Palmer. Clive Palmer has now said that he's got a tip, you know, just like two weeks out. Most people said what they're doing months and months ago, but Clive comes in at the very last moment, huge moneybags $2 million to dump on the table at the very end. I haven't seen any of his content yet. But based on his previous performances, I'll be analysing it pretty closely. I don't know if it will necessarily help that those that he says he's trying to help, like Mr. Dutton and all the rest.

PATRICK: Yeah. All right. So what have you come across about people that are confident of the way that this is going, how are they approaching it when they're coming across negativity?

GORMAN: Again, I think it comes back to people saying how their own personal stories about either what they've experienced, if they are local Noongar people, or if they've seen something where they go, 'Actually, I know, there's a better way.' What I say is, I'm in Government, I see that sometimes we don't get the best advice. We don't get honest advice. And we aren't always getting the best value for money. 

PATRICK: Well, that's certainly been coming out with Royal Commissions and stuff, not getting the right advice. Here's another thing. There are people out there that are saying that, once this thing is in the Constitution, it will divide us forever, and  this is what I say to them, I say 'the Constitution is able to be changed at any time, as long as you have a referendum to change it.' It's pretty simple, isn't it? It's as simple as that, isn't it really? 

GORMAN: Well, section 128 of the Constitution is very clear about the process to change the Constitution. That's the process we've gone through. It's the process that started where we had the bipartisan referendum committee of the Parliament looking at these matters. We had the vote in Parliament to put this question to the people. That process is there. And I don't think there's ever been a proposal put to the Australian people, I should say, to change the process through which we change the Constitution. That's very well set. And everyone understands how we go about that. One of the things that I hope is that over time, we will start to see those really good results with a strong, constitutionally-enshrined Voice. Good results on health, education, jobs, housing, we get all of that. And the Voice will be able to talk about some of those other really important things, around sort of how we best share culture, how we best make sure that it's something that we know when foreign visitors come to Australia, Indigenous culture is one of the things they really want to experience. And maybe the Voice, once we get through those high priority issues, maybe it can give us advice on some of those other cultural pieces, which only the First Nations of Australia can share with us. 
Yeah, exactly. All right. So let's keep trying to explain the way this thing works. The Constitution doesn't actually make any laws, it actually says the way the law should be made. Trying to explain it to people has been fairly difficult. They seem to think that law is actually in the Constitution when it's not, it's just a reference to this is how you make law. And this is the way the law should be looked at. And these are the objectives that the law should be aiming for. That's what the Constitution says.

PATRICK: Yeah, exactly. All right. So let's keep trying to explain the way this thing works. The Constitution doesn't actually make any laws, it actually says the way the law should be made. Trying to explain it to people has been fairly difficult. They seem to think that law is actually in the Constitution when it's not, it's just a reference to this is how you make law. And this is the way the law should be looked at. And these are the objectives that the law should be aiming for. That's what the Constitution says.

GORMAN: That's right. And it outlines the process through which we make those laws. What the Constitution also does is it gives us guidance on what powers the Federal Parliament does and doesn't have. That's really important. But if you look at the Constitution, it's a very small book. Most pieces of legislation are far larger than the Constitution itself, because it had to be drafted in a way that was very clear, very easily able to be understood by all the Australians, including Western Australians, when they voted to federate, back in 1900.

PATRICK: And that's what that Constitution is all about, really, isn't it? It's making all of those states come together in a federation, is basically what it does, correct?

GORMAN: Yes, it was the document to federate. We were until then separate states and separate colonies. And this was the document that brought us all together, again, around really practical things around making sure that we could get trains from the West to the East. So, making sure we could talk to each other, making sure we could have - 

PATRICK: Driving on the same side of the road, sort of thing, basically.

GORMAN: And ultimately, the Constitution has served us incredibly well. We're very fortunate to have that document guiding how we run our Parliament. But there's one area where we know the Constitution didn't properly reflect the reality when we federated.

PATRICK: Well, they weren't working with real information. They were ignoring the real information that they'd actually colonised an area that didn't want to be colonised. They ignored the fact that the people that were already there had ownership because according to their own law, those people they owned that land. And that none of that has still been addressed. I'm concerned about that. And we know that there's a lot of people on the No side that are concerned about that, too. How do you address that question to them?

GORMAN: Well, I think it's been very clearly articulated that this referendum we're having now is in response to all of the consultations that led up to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. And the request there was in terms of the constitutional matters, and at the moment, we're only dealing with the constitutional matters, the constitutional matter that was a priority was constitutional recognition through a Voice. I don't believe that any constitutional or legal amendment can change what is just a fact of history and a fact of culture, which is: that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were here first. They are and always will be the first nations of this land we now call Australia. And the fact that we share this land together, as now one of the most successful multicultural societies anywhere on Earth at any point in history is something that, I think, is something we can all celebrate, bring us all together. And that's also what I hope the referendum will do on the 14th is actually recognise that we embrace our history. But we actually talk together about what do we want our future to be? And what we want our future to be is a united future, a future where we recognise that we have shared responsibility where things aren't on track, but that we're actually all excited about working together to get those things on track.

PATRICK: Okay, well, I've got one here on the text line. It says 'Hi, Mark, a bit of balance, please. No one objects to First Nations people being recognised as Australia's first people. The part about a separate Voice is the sticking point, dividing Australians by race is what the problem is.' Thanks, Bubba. What do you say to Bubba?

GORMAN: Bubba, I say thanks, firstly, for engaging in this conversation, it's really important that every Australian gets the chance to ask questions. It's one of the reasons I'll be standing on prepoll happy to answer questions when people come in to make their decision. But what I'd say is that this idea didn't come from politicians, this idea of a Voice came from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people themselves, they gathered at Uluru. Said this is the form through which we want constitutional recognition. And I don't see why we need to have any fear of the idea of a Voice because it is simply an advisory committee to make sure we get better outcomes. And many people, many of your listeners will serve on different advisory committees over time. You know you never get everything that you want instantly. But what you do get over time is you get better results. And that's what we want. And if we are going to do this important piece of work, as Bubba says, of constitutional recognition, then let's do it. With respect to the way that we've been asked to do it by the First Nations of Australia.

PATRICK: Wonderful stuff. Thanks for coming in this morning. Really appreciate your time. 

GORMAN: Thanks, Mark.