Radio Interview - Noongar Radio - Breakfast with Mark Patrick

Subjects: One day left until the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice to Parliament Referendum, misinformation and disinformation by the No campaign, volunteering on Referendum Day, racism and unacceptable behaviour during the campaign, what the Australian Constitution does and does not recognise.

MARK PATRICK, HOST: So this morning, I have in the studio with me Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, welcome back to Noongar Radio.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE:  Good morning Mark, and good morning to your listeners. And thanks for having me back on this very exciting day, the final working day before the referendum.

PATRICK: Very, very exciting day. Okay, I've got a question for you - it has been bugging me since all of this started and the Prime Minister announced he accepted the election - when, why didn't we go for about three months after he announced it? 

GORMAN: Mark, I think that's a really good question to start our conversation, because a number of people have been asking 'why has it taken so long to get to this referendum?' And indeed, I'd note that obviously, this request didn't come on the day that the Prime Minister took office last year. This request came way back in 2017. But what we've had to do is to do the co-design process with the Referendum Working Group, which is a group of experts, that includes people like Ken Wyatt, to do the design of the question and those design principles. We had to go through the parliamentary process, which has included both getting the Referendum Amendment through the House of Representatives, and through the Senate, and doing a comprehensive Parliamentary Inquiry into the proposed change. I'll note to your listeners that that Parliamentary Inquiry recommended that the Amendment be put forward to the Australian people. And that's why we're here today. And then, once all that's done, the Australian Constitution was designed to make sure that these are slow and considered changes. So it requires that once the Parliament has said we will hold a referendum, there's then effectively another three months before we can go to the vote. 

PATRICK: So it took - what - four months to get it through the Parliament?

GORMAN: Yeah, about that. And that was once we had the legislation developed, which had involved a large amount of consultation with First Nations leaders across Australia. It involved a range of consultations with the Solicitor-General, and we saw his advice provided around these matters. So, I know it's not gonna feel like it to you, but we have -

PATRICK: Well, you can see the look on my face. 

GORMAN: I can see the look on your face, but we've been determined to get this done as quickly as possible, while making sure that we've been so careful on, you know the legal certainty, making sure it's the right amendment. And making sure we did that co-design with First Nations leaders. We've done all of that. And like I said, this has been a conversation has been going for six years, I share some of your frustrations that, in my view, we could have done this even earlier, it could have been done a few years earlier, but it's only been the last 18 months that you've had a government that has been able to get this to the Australian people. And I'd note: I'm pretty proud of the fact that we've done that in a sensible but fast way, while making sure that we're acting on a range of those other pressures on household budgets, making sure we're doing all of those things that people also want to see their governments doing around making sure we're giving people cheaper medicines, trying to fix up Medicare, cheaper childcare -

PATRICK: Well, there's something that's on people's minds at the moment. It's the one thing that's really pressing down on them is the economy. The cost of living at the moment is just ridiculous. And things seem to be not going down anytime soon, especially with a war going on over there in the Northern Hemisphere. But the other thing and I note is that a lot of people have a very, very large misconception about the Constitution itself. They seem to think that it's like, I don't know, the Ten Commandments written in stone and it can't be changed. And I don't know where that attitude comes from. I don't understand why more people don't learn about the Constitution as they're growing up. Most people don't even see it.

GORMAN: And, well, if anyone wants to see a copy of the Constitution, you can pop into my office at 953A Beaufort Street in Inglewood. We hand them out to people all the time. We've been heading out a few more recently because people are asking these questions about 'oh, what is in the Constitution? What does it look like?' But I think it's important that we recognise the Constitution was written to be able to be changed. And over time, we have changed the Australian Constitution. Obviously, there's been a lot of conversation around the 1967 Referendum where we changed the Constitution, to shift the balance of power between the states and the Commonwealth to give the Commonwealth the ability to legislate for the empowerment and betterment of Aboriginal people. We did that in 1967. We've changed the Constitution to change how we put senators into Parliament, particularly with casual vacancies. We've done a range of those changes, and it was always designed to accommodate change. I mean, if you think about it, the Prime Minister has made this point a number of times, the Constitution doesn't mention the Air Force. There's a reason for that. That's because powered flight wasn't really invented until 1903. And then you've got other things that I always point out to people that the Constitution - we've had this conversation about, simply acknowledging something else in our Constitution. The Constitution already acknowledges politicians and acknowledges political parties. It acknowledges the states. You know, our constitution already acknowledges New Zealand. So you've got a range of those things already in the Constitution. All we're seeking to do is to make sure that come Saturday night, that our constitution also recognises 65,000 years of history, and the really exciting opportunities that sit for us by truly working together.

PATRICK: Yeah, yeah, that's good. Alright. I'm gonna keep you here for a second. Now listen, guys, I'm gonna play a song. And then we're gonna bring on the traffic report. And then I'll get back with Patrick. 

[Break in broadcast]

PATRICK: I got an SMS. It says 'G'day, Mark, what's your take on the fake news army that's flooding our media circle at the moment? And what impact does it leave on society?' And I thought I'd throw that one over to you. That one's from Roger. 

GORMAN: Roger, I think we are seeing a lot of misinformation in this referendum. It's probably higher than we've seen in previous Federal elections. And definitely, obviously, because the last time we did a referendum for the Republic in 1999, we didn't have didn't have Twitter, we didn't really have much SMS, we didn't have any of that stuff - 

PATRICK: Still had a lot of fake media, though. 

GORMAN: Still had contestability. 

PATRICK: Yeah.

GORMAN: And I guess the thing that we all have to learn out of this experience is that we all have a responsibility to just second guess things when we say them. Yeah, if you see stuff on social media, and you're like, 'oh, does that really ring true?' Ask the question. Because, you know, just because someone puts something in a graphic and puts it online, doesn't mean it's true. And it doesn't mean it's the full story. And that's why I think we've got to encourage our young people to stay in school and go and learn as much as they can. That's why we've all got to make sure we keep reading from a diverse range of media sources. And it's also - sitting here on a community radio station - it's why the diversity of media and community radio is so important as well.

PATRICK: Yeah. Trying to get people educated on how to use their mind. Using critical thought, being skeptical of claims without evidence and all that sort of thing. 

GORMAN: Yeah.

PATRICK: I don't understand why that's not taught more than school. I know, wasn't when I was there And I don't think it really is now.

GORMAN: I think you do see quite a bit of that in the English curriculum now. But, I just encourage people that that's not just when you're sitting down and doing an assignment in Year 10. Those are lifelong skills to be sort of critically analysing things that even politicians like myself will say, to make sure that you're getting the full story. And I'd always say, if you're looking at this particular referendum, and you've seen a lot out there; go to your authoritative sources. Go and read the legislation. Go and read the Explanatory Memorandum. Go and read the Uluru Statement from the Heart. Go and read where this has actually come from. Because I think there's also some questions, pretty fair questions to ask around the motivations of some of the people who are out there, particularly pushing the No campaign and whether their true interests are around having a fair, factual debate about where we should go or -

PATRICK: It seems like it's just the opposite to me. The fair and factual thing, because when I've asked anyone, and I have invited any No campaigner to come in and talk with me, but I was clear -

GORMAN: I don't think they'd rock up.

PATRICK: - I stated on air, I said, 'I won't accept any argument that isn't based in fact.' And I haven't had any takers. 

GORMAN: Yeah. And I commend you for doing that. Because actually, it is the role of the media to hold all of us to account and to hold us all to a fact-based debate. And if I think about the thing that I've probably found one of the most disappointing parts of this referendum discussion is that the No campaign has no plan. They have no proposal. They are simply saying, here's something we won't do. When what we actually know is that the status quo just isn't working, and a vote for No takes us nowhere. Where does the vote for No take us on Sunday?

PATRICK: Well, it leaves us exactly where we are today.

GORMAN: That's correct. And therefore, I think if you're saying that you're out there pushing the No case, then you have an obligation to have have put forward an alternate plan. And I can't believe how the No campaign have basically got away with saying, 'everything's fine as it is, and we don't have any plans to change it.' 

PATRICK: Okay, I've got another bugbear. Yeah. The AEC. Okay. And I want to know, why it is legal, for lies to be spoken when campaigning? And it seems to be.

GORMAN: What you've got, I mean, firstly, with the Australian Electoral Commission, I do believe Australia is really fortunate to have an independent electoral commission. And that's not the case everywhere in the world. And it is a depoliticised, fiercely independent part of our sort of public service infrastructure. And we're really fortunate for that. When it comes to their role, their role isn't to be the police on what parties or individuals put out. There was a recognition that actually, there is there needs to be quite a fair amount of free and fair debate and speech when it comes to -

PATRICK: That's not what I mind. I don't mind free and fair debate and free and fair speech. What I mind is lies. That's what I mind. I really hate the fact that I can propagate as many lies as they wish, and there seems to be no consequence.

GORMAN: Well, I think we could imagine an alternate world where if the Electoral Commission's responsibility was to be the absolute fact police, then that would be distracting them from their role, which is to run a fair, independent election with rigour. And what I recognise is that, it goes back to our earlier discussion, which is, some of this does rest on us. I think there's an obligation on campaigners -

PATRICK: - oh yeah, critical thought. 

GORMAN: - and, you know, I have when I've seen things from the No campaign that I'm like; 'that's just simply untrue.' I've gone to the effort of calling that out where I can, because I think it's really important that you don't just let a lie slip through uncontested -

PATRICK: It just seems to me that it's ineffective. I'm sorry to interrupt you. But for me, that's ineffective as well, because what I see out there is so much propagation of absolute BS. It's balderdash, really. And they actually get away with it, they are allowed to say it. And I do not understand why the free speech involved in being able to talk openly and honestly with people is also used as a weapon to lie to people. And I think that we either need to be able to issue some sort of, I don't know, have some sort of department or government department or a separate government department that calls out politicians and business people, and anyone who gets up in front of the public and says a deliberate lie.

GORMAN: I think that's a really important discussion to have, I'm probably a little bit too focused on the next 24 hours, 36 hours, to engage in it too deeply. But, I would note that the media has a really important role to play in that. If you think about over the course of Australia's history, in terms of our electoral process and things, the media has traditionally filled a lot of that role of 'calling out BS,' as you put it, of looking for where politicians maybe have not been entirely upfront with their electors, and sort of saying, 'actually, this goes a little bit too far.' So, I do think, whatever processes you might suggest you'd have in government, actually, we do have a pretty diverse and robust media in Australia. And it is a really important role that the media plays in elections, at referendums, and in between, as well.

PATRICK: Okay, so I told you about a little incident that I had in Fremantle, a few days ago. And I have had other people tell me, that sort of thing is more prevalent now. That seems like a tsunami on the social media or the negativity. Is there any plan afterwards to address some of those things?

GORMAN: Well, what we did did know was that we needed to put more support in place, particularly for First Nations people, as we headed into this referendum. Minister Linda Burney announced that quite a few months ago, that we would provide some additional support in the mental health and counselling space, specifically knowing that unfortunately, there are some people who have more hate than love in their heart, and they act on that in inappropriate ways. And so we have put in place a range of those supports. In terms of you know, it's not just yourself, I know it's a number of your listeners who have had really tough experiences. And I've seen some pretty disappointing things. I've been on early voting booths for the last two weeks. I know my volunteers have been experiencing some pretty awful stuff as well. I've had to call out some pretty inappropriate behavior. Even yesterday, we had someone come by on a bike to early voting center and yell some abuse at some volunteers. I was like, 'Mate, you've gotta go and apologise, you can't just - you can't behave like that.' And so I take my responsibility of upholding a higher standard very seriously. Look, I hope that tomorrow night, we are celebrating a strong Yes vote. And that that sees us continue on that path to reconciliation, continuing on that path to getting better outcomes, and opening more space for proper listening. And that includes listening to the experiences of First Nations people today, where they continue to experience as you point out to me, some pretty horrible racism. But either way, I mean, I think about the values that have led me to this discussion and this referendum, which is basically, we're stronger together, we're stronger when we work together, we're stronger, we listen to each other, and we're stronger when we recognise -

PATRICK: Speaking of working together, we have people that haven't actually been to vote yet. Or maybe they want to get in there and hand out supplies, and they haven't volunteered, they could just get down to their local?

GORMAN: Yeah, I think I think every one of your listeners needs to write a to do list of two things for tomorrow. First item on the to-do list is: go and vote. And don't just go by yourself, make sure you're checking in with your friends, your family, your aunties, your uncles, your kids, your mum, your dad. Make sure that everyone in your network is getting out to vote as well. Because firstly, it's a great opportunity. Secondly, obviously, it is compulsory, and I don't want any of your listeners to be getting fine in a month's time. So that's item one, go and vote. Second item on the Saturday to-do list is: if you want to just rock up to a voting booth, and volunteer. You know, you don't have to fill in a form or anything. It's a free country. It's a democratic country. Just rock up and say, 'hey, I'm here, because I want to get a big Yes vote. I want to hand out flyers. Tell me where to stand. I'll do it for three hours.' And it's a lot of fun. And what you'll also find is that there's a lot of people who will be walking in tomorrow, who haven't yet made up their mind. And so -

PATRICK: I mean, if you go and do it for your local area. You're gonna meet an awful lot of people you probably don't even know. And they're your neighbours.

GORMAN: Yeah. Yeah, I even find that when I'm standing on a booth and people come up to me and they're like 'oh, we live around the corner from you.' And I'm like 'yeah, we see you at the park!' So you get all of that really nice stuff, too. You know, most of the schools have their parents and citizens doing barbecues and things. So there's normally like, some sausages, democracy sausage, there's often some cupcakes. So it's a bit of fun. And I'd really encourage your listeners, if you want to see a Yes vote, you don't want to be sitting on the couch on Saturday night feeling like you could've done a bit more. So, why not just walk down your local primary school, wherever the voting is, hand out a few flyers, have a few conversations, and you might win a few people over? And that feels pretty good.

[Break in broadcast]

PATRICK: A few final words before you disappear out of the studio?

GORMAN: I'd just say, this is our best opportunity to really take a huge step towards closing the gap. What we know and what we've been talking about, and I think everyone agrees in this debate around the referendum is that; the current system is not working. We're seeing that, there's so many examples of that. So we've got to do something different. And I don't see why you wouldn't say Yes to the proposal that was consulted on by Indigenous Australians across the country over many years.

PATRICK: It's been going on for years.

GORMAN: It's got 80% support from First Nations people. It is a very modest proposal that is simply an advisory committee to the Parliament. So the Parliament makes better decisions. I'm sitting in the Parliament. And I know that when we get good advice, we get great decisions. And therefore if we can get better advice from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people through a Voice, that's a good thing. And that Constitution we started our conversation about, currently, it doesn't acknowledge that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were the first peoples of this country. That is a fact that we must acknowledge. It is the truth. It should be in our Constitution. And tomorrow, we can make that happen. All people need to do is make sure they rock up to vote, write Yes, and bring your friends along. And there's a lot of people still making up their mind. So if you're a strong Yes supporter, I would say to you, make sure you're reaching out to those people who you think might be a little bit on the fence. Have a conversation with them, listen to them. Don't just tell them what you think they should do, have a serious listening conversation with them. But make them realise; this is just about recognition and listening, so we get better results and better value for money and better outcomes for all Australians.

PATRICK: That'd be nice. Wouldn't it wouldn't Thank you very much Patrick. I really appreciate your time here on Breakfast with me this morning.