Television interview - ABC Afternoon Briefing

GREG JENNETT, HOST: Bringing in our political panel and joining us right here in the studio, we're pleased to say once again, Labor MP Patrick Gorman, welcome Pat and Liberal MP James Stevens is here face to face, both of you. Why don't we start with you, Patrick Gorman? The changes in mood that are intended by rule changes and what have you, Question Time rule changes as well. Do you think they're working? I know we've only had one sample session of Question Time so far, but it's still pretty robust sort of exchanges there. I mean, you're being hit by James's side with questions about the conduct of union officials. Are we going to see a kinder, gentler parliament?

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Well, it is a big week for Australia. We've obviously got the opening of the 47th Parliament, we've got the closing of Neighbours tomorrow night. There's a lot of emotions in the country this week, but I've been encouraged by what I've seen so far in the new Parliament, both the tone of the first speeches that we've seen, the optimism for Members on all sides about what we can achieve through Australia's democratic processes. I'm encouraged by the changes that we've put forward to improve the standing orders, to make sure that more Members can participate in debates and that we can have the urgency that sometimes is needed for legislation.

JENNETT: There's a concern, though, that was expressed by Paul Fletcher that could be abused because of the particular way that it was written. Do you acknowledge that in the thrust, particularly in sort of the third year of a Parliament, when the focus is on the electoral cycle, Governments might be tempted to ram things through using these powers you've been given today?

GORMAN: Not really. I didn't see when there was urgent legislation pushed through by the government that Paul Fletcher was a part of, he didn't seem to be particularly concerned about those things. Maybe he's learned some things over the last few months. I don't know what's changed in his views, but no, this is pretty reasonable, we're not saying that we are doing this for a particular piece of legislation. What we are saying to the Parliament here is, when there are those moments that things are urgent and members want to have their say and we need the Parliament to do its job of passing legislation, this is how he proposed to do that. I think actually it's about being more open and more honest with the Parliament rather than just using gag clauses or ramming things through.

JENNETT: Would you acknowledge that, James, because in the previous Parliament there were a great many pandemic related Bills that really had to be rushed through. Now, they might have used different mechanisms to do it because most of those had bipartisan support, but it is essential that governments can do these things. What's wrong with the rule changes past today?

JAMES STEVENS, MEMBER FOR STURT: Well, for the very point you've made, Greg, of course, we haven't needed these rules to do these things in a bipartisan way in the past. What this effectively allows the Government to do is conflate debate down, limit the ability of the Parliament to act. We've seen a different Tony Burke today, of course, to the one that we had in the previous Parliament when he was on the other side of these arguments. So the leopard has changed his spots in that regard. It's not just the Bills, by the way, it's also Question Time. Of course, there will be less questions asked from the opposition as part of these changes. I don't have a problem with the Crossbench getting more questions. The Government could have given up some of their Dorothy Dixers, of course, but they've chosen instead to limit our ability to scrutinise them during Question Time. That's regrettable, but they can explain why they've got a different view of the way the Parliament should operate now than it did in the last term. We can't do anything about it. They control that chamber. They got these rules through despite our opposition. And that's the strength of them using their numbers to curtail the democratic process.

JENNETT: Yeah. Just on Question Time, it does have to be proportionate, doesn't it? Why weren't there equal proportions taken from the Government side as the opposition?

GORMAN: Well, the Government and the opposition, because of the decision of the Australian people, don't have equal proportions of members in the House. The Australian people have chosen to put 77 Members from the Australian Labor Party into the House of Representatives. You've got then, of course, Independents, Greens Party.

JENNETT: Yeah but it’s accommodating them that’s the issue, isn't it?

GORMAN: They're representatives and they have electorates to represent, so I'm pleased that we will hear their questions. The opposition today chose to ask lots of questions on one particular topic, so it's not like they were trying to get through more issues that they couldn't get through. They chose to stay very focused on one particular issue. So I don't think we lacked any debate on the things that were important to the opposition today. And then they even went further with the MPI on the same topic. If they’ve only got one topic, it's a bit hard for them to be complaining about not having more questions.

JENNETT: One topic with multiple rounds of questions, obviously. Your side, James, feels that there's some benefit to really pursuing this fold down of the Construction Commission, but deliberately tying the Prime Minister in here with questions about rogue officials who have committed criminal offences, where does that leave the dignity and tone of the House? Is that a deliberate tactic there?

STEVENS: Well, we're just highlighting the reality that the piper is being paid now. The people that donated enormous amounts of funds to help Labor win this election, the CFMEU, one of the biggest donors to the Labor Party over a very long time, and now cashing in on the result of Labor's victory and removing a very important cop on the beat that oversees them and the lawlessness that they engage in. So, with the imminent demise of the ABCC, we are highlighting the fact that that is going to put enormous pressure on the construction industry at the worst possible time. But there are huge links between the union movement, as we know, and this Government. And it's quite right that we highlight them and hold them to account over what is going on between the relationship of financial donations from unions to this Government and changes to legislation this Government are enacting after they get the benefit of those donations by winning an election.

JENNETT: Alright, now that's your point to make. I guess they would argue, we won't extend this topic of conversation, but Labor, of course, are arguing that they have a mandate because they took this particular initiative to the election. Climate legislation now before the House, along with about eleven other Bills I counted today, James, but your party, the die is cast, it seems there's no going back. Are you tied forever to the old target, 26 to 28, and you're going to sit out on the 43. You're comfortable with that?

STEVENS: Well, we'll have a new policy on emissions reduction for the 2025 election and we'll have the opportunity to work through contemporaneously closer to the election what our position is on 2030. I think 2035 will probably be the more significant issue at debate come the 2025 election, but we're not supporting the legislation that's been introduced today. That was a position that we took to the election. Chris Bowen at the Press Club, of course, when he was foreshadowing this, started by saying he didn't need this legislation to enact Labor's policy platform to achieve 43%. As a Liberal, I don't want unnecessary legislation that the Government themselves admit isn't necessary to implement their policy.

JENNETT: We've heard from people like Bridget Archer only yesterday saying she's very attuned to what her own electorate is saying on that matter. And I guess, at best, hedging her bets and reserving her right to cross if she so chose. Are you entirely sure that you're in line with community sentiment, even in your own electorate, by adopting this just say no position?

STEVENS: Well, Bridget is entitled to reserve her position on this and I won't speak for her. But look, I'm very comfortable that when I seek reelection in three years time, I'll be part of a process developing our climate change targets. We, of course, are committed to net zero by 2050. I'm very pleased with that position that we achieved in the last Parliament. I'm looking forward to playing my part in achieving

GORMAN: You didn’t achieve it in the Parliament.

STEVENS: Policy positions in the lead up to 2025 for 2030, 2035 and beyond in an economically responsible way.

JENNETT: Pat, last word on this particular topic. It looks like you're going to get the numbers anyway. The opposition can sit it out. Vote no, and they appeared like they will.

GORMAN: Vote no, kick it down the road. That's what the coalition does every time. It's what they've done for the last ten years. That's what they're going to do for the next ten years. I hope that some Members of the coalition speak sense and possibly even vote with sense. The people of Australia were consulted on our plan for net zero by 2050 in law and our plan for 43% emissions reduction by 2030. We went to the Australian people, they gave it the green light. We need to make sure this is put through the Parliament, as was promised to the people of Australia. That's what we're going to do. What the opposition choose to do is a matter for them. But I think they'll be held accountable again at the next election if they continue to try and block action on climate change.

JENNETT: Sure. All right. Inflation and economic management. Big talking point of the day after those quarterly figures came out, Jim Chalmers is obviously softening us up, preparing us for some unspecified decisions that are going to have to be made after his economic statement tomorrow. Does that mean that there is nothing left in the kitty to soften the cost of living pressure over and above what was promised at the campaign?

GORMAN: Well, I think firstly, for the people of Australia, they didn't need the 6.1% inflation figure to know the cost of living is going up. And they are feeling that every time they go to the shopping centre, every time they go to the supermarket. And while we didn't create the circumstances around which caused this inflationary pressure, we accept responsibility for what we need to do, both on measures to control inflation, where Government action can do that, and on easing cost of living pressures. And we've already outlined a range of things around renewable energy, about making sure that we have more affordable childcare, cheaper medicines, we've got people a pay rise for people on the minimum wage, we're doing what we can, but we're also speaking honestly to people. We don't want to pretend that we can fix every problem of a global inflationary moment that we're all experiencing. And we don't want to pretend to people they're not experiencing pain because we know when they go to the supermarket, they are feeling this inflationary pain.

JENNETT: And James, your side can't have it both ways, can it, in this inflationary environment? I mean, you can't call for additional cost of living measures or extensions of fuel excise cuts without actually adding to inflationary pressures. This is a bind that you'd be in as well if you were in Government right now.

STEVENS: Well, I'm not calling for that. I don't know any of my team that's calling for those specific measures. But Labor gave some clear commitments, knowing the circumstances we were in before the election, that they're now running away from at a thousand miles an hour, particularly growth in real wages. Now, we've got the Treasurer after the election saying, brace yourself for the fact that real wages are going to decrease in the foreseeable future. So Labor said one thing to get elected and now they're changing their tune on the other side. It's going to be a historic moment when the Treasurer outlines the Parliament tomorrow the reality of our fiscal situation. And they've got an enormous amount of heavy lifting to do on the fiscal side, we can't leave all of this to the RBA and monetary policy, because increasing interest rates without support from fiscal contraction is going to put a huge amount of pressure on households, particularly around their mortgage payments. So Labor are now in Government, they've got to make some of these tough decisions and we look to see what they're going to be starting from tomorrow, when we see that outlook from the Treasurer.

JENNETT: Yeah, whatever happens, it's going to be a rough ride for the next six months at least, or so we're being prepared for. Pat Gorman finally going back to the matter of the conduct of the House, there's no late night sittings that stretch on into the wee small hours, that means evenings might be opened up for other pursuits. And tomorrow night, the Neighbours finale might be one of those. Can we count you as one of the millions of Australians who will be strapped to the couch in your office watching this episode?

GORMAN: Look, I've got the family here in Canberra, so hopefully I'll have made it back to the hotel in time to watch that historic moment.

JENNETT: I take it you were a mad fan in another age, a younger life?

GORMAN: Look, I'm not a mad fan of Neighbours, but it's just been around my entire life. It is part of Australia, it's iconic, it's part of how we've sold Australia to the world through Charlene, as we would know as Kylie Minogue, Nina Tucker, who is Delta Goodrem, all of these international artists.

JENNETT: You’re rattling them all off now.

GORMAN: Now, I don't want to forget Toadfish, everyone's favourite, but it is a moment for our nation. And I also want to say to everyone has worked on that programme over the years, people who produce Australian drama, Australian content, people in the arts community, that amazing part of our economy. It is a loss for our country. It did happen under the former Government, but I don't blame them. It's a big loss. And I just want to say to everyone, whether that be the makeup artists, the costume team, the staging team, the writers, the producers, the technical crews, all the best. Enjoy your celebration tomorrow night.

JENNETT: No, best wishes to all and thanks for sharing your private pleasures around Neighbours, Patrick Gorman. James Stevens, we will leave you out on this one.

STEVENS: Fine by me.